The Potential of Mega Man X9

[Majikn]

Thought I'd start its own topic.

IF Mega Man X9 existed, what would you like to see? What graphical style, what characters, whatever... but most of all, like, what kind of levels, bosses, and weapons designs would you expect? What do you think would be interesting for X and Zero to do? What can be done that hasn't been done before? What would work, and what wouldn't?

This series has a breadth of content to sort through, we could potentially have a list of YESes and NOs on any previous element that another X game had, and then also leave room for other new ideas.

[Mikero]

Jury's out on if MM11 makes 2.5D work, so for now I'd say I want to stay away from that style.

For the gameplay, I think the X series holds more room for innovation than any existing Megaman series, so more than specific weapons I'd want to see the weapons used in interesting and variable ways. If I play X1, for example, I don't really switch the weapons much during a level. I would like to WANT to use the weapons frequently in the stage, and NEED them to solve certain puzzles/problems. Give me a more than one way to skin a cat. We've seen it in other MM games. I just want the ability to choose my path more. Perhaps instead of weapons doing one specific thing they can be more implemented into a physics engine. Still a side-scrolling game, but one where I can strategize my next move.

For the story I think I'd like more plot than most people, but I want it to only advance and inform the existing lore and perhaps rewrite/overwrite some of what they said happens between MMX and MMZ.

Basically I'd want X9 to fulfill the potential of what the X series always could have been. More than anything, though, I don't want to see X9 go the way of so many "new sequel after a long time" games and just rehash everything we've been doing for 30 years. I'm personally bored of the whole virus thing, and I liked it better when we thought Mavericks were just making a political choice rather than being "evil because of infection". The series can have more depth than that.

[Xero]

They need to go and take a good hard look at the games that were successful and use those as a basis.

1:  No having to rescue reploids for upgrade parts.  They should use the metal system from X8 that allows us to get upgrades like jumper, hyper dash, auto-recover, shock guard, etc buy buying them with bolts/metals.   Speaking of X8, that brings me to my next point

2:  Have heart tanks, Sub-tanks, etc find-able again.  I didn't like X8's idea of making them purchasable parts (despite the fact that you had to find said part anyway).  I want to explore a stage to find hidden secrets using either weapons or a ride armor (If one is in the stage) to find those again.  Also don't need a weapon tank or the EX tank.  4 Sub tanks will suffice.

3:  I'm okay with 2.5 graphics as long as it looks fluid, but I know others will prefer sprites so 32-bit sprites are good.

4:  Story needs to be fixed (god knows how they are going to pull that off.)  As I said before, I want to pretend that nearly everything after X4 didn't exist, but unfortunately we have to.  So if X9 has any story, it needs to be self-contained.  No alluding to the elf wars, or anything like that.

5:  If they game gives us multiple armors, allow us the ability to mix & match for different results.  I liked that idea in X8, but maybe they can expand on it more and give special bonuses when even different parts from armors are combined.  Also no having to wait until full armor is completed to use it.  That was #####ing bull#####.

Other than that, just try to keep it like the original SNES games with your standard intro stage, 8 bosses, maybe extra mid stage boss due to meeting certain criteria, and they your fortress stages.

[Mikero]

I'd prefer to find the armor pieces rather than just pay for them, but I agree that no one wants to rescue reploids for that. I like that mix and match idea.

For my money, X9 should just disregard anything MMZ/ZX and just treat that as a separate timeline. In fact, I would like it if they made specific plot points to contradict MMZ.

I'm okay with 2.5 graphics as long as it looks fluid

The problem is it rarely does.

[TheRedPriest]

Jury's out on if MM11 makes 2.5D work, so for now I'd say I want to stay away from that style.

It's not though.  2.5D NEVER works.  It always looks like a bad doll house diorama or floating stage over a picture.  Gameplay is always kind of floaty or imprecise.  It is a literal inescapable part of doing a 2D game in 3D.  The best we can hope for is it's at the more playable/visual end of the spectrum.  But even that is significantly inferior to even a mediocre true 2D game.

That aside, things X9 needs but will never get are:

1) Pure action/arcade style levels.  No gimmicks (Slow "stealth", Bikes, All minibosses, Auto scrolling, etc, etc).  Just keep it to precise fast platforming that requires good reflexes and skill with smart enemy placement and stage layout.

2) Lose Axl.  Completely.  The gameplay suffers the more characters you add that have different play style.  You simply can NOT build a good stage and have it satisfying to play or play well like that.  The stages should ALL be built around X and how he plays.

3) Keep playable characters to X and Zero, and make you choose which one at the start and lock that in for the whole game.  This comes right off of point 2.  The stages should all be built on X, and Zero make navigating them easier in some places and harder in other based on how Zero controls.  X4 did it perfectly.  It also lets you tailor the game better to a "normal" and "hard" difficulty based on who you choose, and offers up a nice "2nd Quest" type situation with both characters games having different tie in parts.

4) Keep it 2D.  I already said why.

5) Bring back hidden items/power ups/secrets.  Bring back heart tanks, sub tanks, and weapon tanks and make them hidden in stages.  Have the order you beat stages affect stages you haven't been to yet, making them harder/easier/make it possible to get to a hidden item.  X1 is still the master of this, and it needs to come back.  And with being locked into a single character for a play through, you don't have to worry about not being able to max out your HP by swapping who gets a heart tank.

6) Focus on a nice self contained plot to wrap the game up in.  The lore is ##### show at this point.  Just ignore it.  Do a fun self contained story and ignore the train wreck.  Don't hint at the retarded ##### they've written themselves into.  Keep it simple and focus on the game play and level design over the plot. 

7) Less is more.  Keep it to one armor for X, and let you equip each piece as you get it.

Lose the rescue #####.  It inhibits the quick game play the early games had and bogs things down.  And since we've removed the system of upgrades they were used for, they have no reason to exist anyway.

9) I think a 32bit style would look good, and if they want to make it look good, use HD sprites with good animation.

Basically, the early games were damn near perfect in balance and ideas.  I can honestly say X5 and up have added literally NOTHING worth keeping or implementing in the game play or lore department.  They only served to make things MORE needlessly complicated, annoying, and/or broken.

We all know Capcom will continue down the X7/X8 road though.  It will be lore heavy, it will bog down the actual gameplay, it will be 3D, it will have 30 playable characters, the level design will be gimmicks out the ass.  It will be needlessly complex and complicated.  It will have DLC out the ass.  The Switch port will have half the game on the cartridge.  And that's IF we get an X9.  Honestly, at this point, we won't get a good X9 and I'd rather not get a bad one.  Just let it stay dead.

[Xero]

Considering how Mega Man 11 is shaping up to be, I don't think X9 will go the X7/X8 route.  2.5D graphics aside, it looks that if X9 were to come to pass, they would look at the older games and use those as a template.  Hopefully they'll see people prefer X Legacy Collection 1 over 2 and use those games. 

I will remain cautiously optimistic for now.

[Mikero]

Jury's out on if MM11 makes 2.5D work, so for now I'd say I want to stay away from that style.

It's not though.  2.5D NEVER works.  It always looks like a bad doll house diorama or floating stage over a picture.  Gameplay is always kind of floaty or imprecise.

I agree.

I'm only hoping for MM11 to break the cycle. Every new piece of footage looks tighter than before. I loathe 2.5D as much as anybody, but I'm keeping an open mind.

[TheRedPriest]

You learn not to after endless disappointment.

[Majikn]

What if X's arm part could allow you to mix boss weapons? Imagine something like a fire wave/homing torpedo hybrid. Probably a throwaway idea but it just randomly occurred to me.

One thing I'll definitely add: Lose Alia. I don't care if she's a character in the story I just don't want her talking back to me in the stages. Obviously the stages should be designed such that her input isn't needed.

I'd also look for... if there's going to be lore, I'd rather it be in the environments. I'd rather them go for stage design first, and then if they can tell a story with how they visualize the stages and enemies, then they should do it that way without explaining too much overtly.

[Xero]

The way Alia was implemented was fine after X5.  She can provide tips and hits for those unfamiliar with the X series, but as long as it's optional. 

I don't think weapons should be mixed as each weapon has a normal and charged variant. 

[Mikero]

A power-crafting mechanic would certainly be interesting. I really like that idea.

Especially if you have side/optional bosses that aren't weak to the main 8 weapons. You can have something like the X-Hunters or Four Guardians as a side-story and they're each weak to some sort of alchemical result of two of the main Mavericks' weapons. Maybe it's the only way to get a really good set of armor or a weapon.

It also opens up new possibilities for unique level design, an even more complex way to change the levels than just "hit flammable tank with flame".

To an extent, Mighty Gunvolt Burst's gun mechanics do this well.

You learn not to after endless disappointment.

Xero never did  

[Xero]

Quiet you.

[Mikero]

Tee hee!

I enjoy how hyped you still get after all these years, it's refreshing for a sod like me, just look at that MvC thread.

[Xero]

I still stand by the fact the game play is solid.  It's just marred by a weak roster and graphical design.

[TheRedPriest]

Game play IS the key thing, but Jesus when EVERY other aspect of it is unsalvageable you hate to look at it, listen to it, or even play it.

[Xero]

According to the X Legacy Collection Album, there is a blurb that states "The Story of X's fight is not yet over"

I think this ##### is happening....

[Majikn]

The way Alia was implemented was fine after X5.  She can provide tips and hits for those unfamiliar with the X series, but as long as it's optional.  

I don't think weapons should be mixed as each weapon has a normal and charged variant.  

My offhand thought was that strong level design wouldn't even require the option of her input, in the same way that 1-1 of Super Mario Bros. is designed such that it doesn't need someone interrupting you to tell you you can jump on goombas. That being said I feel that you've probably played X8 more than I have and maybe you have an example or two where she was better for the overall game by being in there.

In the worst case I'd accept the option to just turn her off, but my opinion is that in the best case, with the best design, maybe she wouldn't be needed in the first place.

And what if there just weren't charged variants? What if charging was the simply the mechanic by which you combine weapons? You hold down charge, swap weapon, release, and then a combination occurs of the weapon you started charging and the weapon you released. I dunno.

Other thoughts:
If any secrets are barred by lacking certain weapons or upgrades, you should still be able to 100% the game without revisiting stages. Which means, ideally, the suggested boss order is the same order in which you tackle the levels and are able to collect everything. That way people who already know the optimal way to 100% the game get a streamlined experience without it really affecting people who are still feeling out the game blind.

Obviously both X and Zero should be able to access all upgrades in one form or another.

I'd actually be fine if Vile was playable, even as just a tacked-on unlockable that, unlike Alia/Layer/Palette, would havefer some variation in the gameplay.

If fusing things together becomes sort of the gimmick, maybe the 8-boss rush can be a 4-boss rush instead, to which maybe there's randomness involved in which ones fuse together their movesets and attacks.

and then at the end of the game you become an ultimate golden god character named xero

But I joke.
Honestly I don't know how well any of that would work in tandem with Zero's gameplay anyway. I do agree that I want more incentive to test and use weapon energy during the stages though.

But either way, definite YES to bringing back SOMETHING similar to the X-Hunters. That was my favourite part of X2.

According to the X Legacy Collection Album, there is a blurb that states "The Story of X's fight is not yet over"

I think this ##### is happening....

I think they're planning something but I'm keeping relatively cool about it until I see it. I'm already pretty happy for MM11's existence; that's plenty enough for me right now. If they're working on X9, or MMX [working title] or whatever because maybe it won't even be a direct sequel to all the weird story crap that happened before, I hope they make sure MM11 is good first before they continue.

[Xero]

It can't hurt to have, but it shouldn't be forced upon either.  I hated X5 for the fact that it was forced and completely ruined the gameplay. 

[TheRedPriest]

I'll be honest, I have no interest or excitement for an X9, because we know exactly what we'll get.  2.5D, at best.  It will leverage the lore HEAVILY into the game play and game design which will force it into the same awful path the last several games have had.  Gotta get closer to MMZ, right Capcom?

If this happens, it will take an act of god to get me to even look at it.

[Xero]

I'm on the same boat as you Rez, I really don't know how Capcom is going to fix this train wreck if it even can be fixed at all.

[Mikero]

The way Alia was implemented was fine after X5.  She can provide tips and hits for those unfamiliar with the X series, but as long as it's optional. 

I don't think weapons should be mixed as each weapon has a normal and charged variant. 

My offhand thought was that strong level design wouldn't even require the option of her input, in the same way that 1-1 of Super Mario Bros. is designed such that it doesn't need someone interrupting you to tell you you can jump on goombas. That being said I feel that you've probably played X8 more than I have and maybe you have an example or two where she was better for the overall game by being in there.

In the worst case I'd accept the option to just turn her off, but my opinion is that in the best case, with the best design, maybe she wouldn't be needed in the first place.

Exactly. This is the principal methodology if X1's opening stage (perhaps best pointed out in sequelitis).

And what if there just weren't charged variants? What if charging was the simply the mechanic by which you combine weapons?

That is actually the way the charge mechanic works in Mighty Gunvolt Burst. The problem for that game is, it's not exactly useful. But that's due to that game's specific design, so it could easily be done a lot better.

Honestly I don't know how well any of that would work in tandem with Zero's gameplay anyway. I do agree that I want more incentive to test and use weapon energy during the stages though.

I don't think the Mighty Gunvolt games are all THAT good compared to what other people say, but I keep coming back to MGB;

If you're going for "Burst" combos (defeating enemies in close quarters) then weapon customization no only works, but adds an extra level of depth. I think the weapon mixing thing could work really well for Zero too.

But either way, definite YES to bringing back SOMETHING similar to the X-Hunters. That was my favourite part of X2.

Hell yeah, mine too. The whole storyline of getting Zero's parts back to resurrect him, after the shock of losing him in the first game... As a young lad I thought that was real damn smart story progression from game to game.

[SB]

After the recent X Collection showcasing how the series became worse over time, I'm hoping that's the first thing they try to correct without dipping into rehash territory, such as more highways and the like. That place was Green Hill before Green Hill was even a thing like it is these days. I think if Capcom had it in them to release CM on the collection, then that would be my preferred way to continue the series, since the story is ripe for exploitation, but the gameplay fizzled out long ago for the traditional 2D style the X series is known for. Then again, I'd settle for a non-mobile Breath of Fire by this point in time, since Capcom used to make great JRPGs in the past.

Day of Sigma and MHX in general is the direction I would like the next game to go in a traditional route, where we have beautiful animated scenes to streamline the hype and action where the ingame models would normally falter, though I'm also aware that MHX shines so much due to being based one one of the best games of the entire series. Axl being included or not would be another thing, since he's rather redundant with X playing the range game as well, and that overshadows Zero's gameplay in recent titles due to the risk/reward involved of combat range. Maybe going back to just X and Zero with Axl as an unlockable could work best for this "return to form" that a proverbial X9 could bring.

I'll do my part and buy 11 due to the price and something to tide me over til the new Star Fox releases next month, but Megaman titles have a bad history of performing to Capcom CoD sales  expectations, so no telling how this future works out. MM10 didn't give us MM11, and MvCi killed an entire franchise with the amount of no sells it did, meaning anything goes in the house that Monster Hunter has kept together.

[Xero]

I think what is most likely going to happen is that Axl is going to the next "villian" due to Lumine's influence.  But it's going to be subverted by X and Zero purging Lumine from Axl and saving him.  Just in time for Command Mission. 

I just don't want them going the #####ing elf wars route. 

[TheRedPriest]

Day of Sigma and MHX in general is the direction I would like the next game to go in a traditional route, where we have beautiful animated scenes to streamline the hype and action where the ingame models would normally falter, though I'm also aware that MHX shines so much due to being based one one of the best games of the entire series.

MHX didn't shine, it ##### on X1.  The 2.5D was awful, the remixes were totally off tone and tempo, and the remixing of the armor capsules was wholly unnecessary.  It was basically X7/X8ing X1.  And it was awful.

The series DESPERATELY needs to go back to the early games though, gameplay and structure wise though.  They need to dump Axl, and focus on building the entire game around X and how he moves and plays.  Period.  Add Zero in and use him like in X4, it worked perfectly.  That's all you need, and really, any more and you just start getting a mess of poor gameplay and stage design like you did as the series went on.  Less is more.

[Mikero]

If Axl has to remain a character for "story purposes" (which I don't agree with), then he should be a side character and non-playable.

til the new Star Fox releases next month,

Starlink? Or am I missing some news?

[TheRedPriest]

Star Link isn't a new Star Fox game.  He's just a guest character.

[Teelio]

Didn't Axl get FUBAR'd at the end of X8? Perhaps I remembered that final scene differently.

Surely the X staff is all too aware of the taint that is his presence. Unlike Bass, Axl doesn't seem to add any real depth to the story, except for being a protagonist to represent the "New-Gen Reploids", which seems to be a plot that could handle itself well without him.

At least Bass stood as a real rival in the Classic series. Axl is just, well.... I wouldn't know what to call him. A "means for extra gameplay"?

Backtracking, if X9 ever sees the light of day, I only hope they give Axl a proper exit, while he stands a legitimate secondary character (at the very most). A core game overall goes without saying, but Axl simply has to go.


Also, no whack ressurections for Axl like Zero underwent nth times in future installments.... Granted, if the X series EVER returns.

[Xero]

I just don't want it to lead into the elf wars. 

And if they want to flesh Axl out better, have his character be based on stealth and infiltration.  He can change his form to disguise himself and blend in with enemies, then infiltrate and sabotage. 

[TheRedPriest]

Only the worst deviant art types want the Elf Wars.  It was an utterly stupid concept taken to the extreme.  Game play wise it doesn't even offer much that couldn't be done in a far less stupid way. 

[LCrazy11]

most i see elf wars adding is levels of fighting 'floating-in-air-annoying-to-hit-going-through-walls' type enemys being all you fight with a big one at the end

the megaman timeline is screwed at this point unless we retcon zero and zx out of existence to go straight to legends, maybe if legends 3 happens you could find the dormant bodies of x and zero, but i'm tired and this idea may not be as good as i think it is right now

[Mikero]

most i see elf wars adding is levels of fighting 'floating-in-air-annoying-to-hit-going-through-walls' type enemys being all you fight with a big one at the end

It's been a looooonnng time since I ventured into it but I never got the impression that the Elf Wars were actually about fighting ELVES themselves. I assume it's like Star Trek's eugenics wars, where basically you had reploids/mavericks fighting each other with the use of the cyber elves as a sort of enhancement/weapon.

Star Link isn't a new Star Fox game.  He's just a guest character.

Exactly why I asked.

Surely the X staff is all too aware of the taint that is his presence. Unlike Bass, Axl doesn't seem to add any real depth to the story, except for being a protagonist to represent the "New-Gen Reploids", which seems to be a plot that could handle itself well without him.

At least Bass stood as a real rival in the Classic series. Axl is just, well.... I wouldn't know what to call him. A "means for extra gameplay"?

My take is that Axl is essentially a kid sidekick. Or in a sense, he's what happens if all of us making fan characters back then actually PUT our characters into the game. Except with even worse writing. He's like his own type of mary sue that's even worse.

Bass was great because for the most part he was consistently a rival that didn't get along with Mega Man. Outside of MM&B they never really see eye to eye.

It's just about writing with integrity. Bass was a well-thought out character from top to bottom, his existence has purpose and makes sense with the established storyline. What can Wily do to beat Mega Man? Make a better Mega Man. On the flipside, the entire basis for Axl's existence was "what if I put like my fanboy son into the game?"

[NovaMan XP]

And they never really bothered to even explain anything about Axl either.

He's been in three games and was the focus of one of them and yet the most we know about him we learn within the first five minutes of X7... he can copy Reploids, and he was with Red Alert. That's really about it.

Then X8 adds him being the prototype for New Generation Reploids... but that's about it.

Due to Axl's ending in X8, it would seem likely a future X game will revolve around him again. Though that could always be a red herring and Sigma could just come back again.

[Xero]

most i see elf wars adding is levels of fighting 'floating-in-air-annoying-to-hit-going-through-walls' type enemys being all you fight with a big one at the end

the megaman timeline is screwed at this point unless we retcon zero and zx out of existence to go straight to legends, maybe if legends 3 happens you could find the dormant bodies of x and zero, but i'm tired and this idea may not be as good as i think it is right now

The reason why I dispise the whole elf wars/zero series so much is that story wise, it takes a huge steamy crap on X and his entire purpose in life. 

X fought his entire life to create a peaceful world for both humans and reploids, and in the end it gets completely #####ed over because of the elf wars.  60% of humans and 90% of reploids are killed and the world becomes a dystopian dumpster fire of garbage with things getting worse and worse.

[Mikero]

It would have been more conceptually interesting if losing 90% of reploids made the world a BETTER place. Then you could have had X dealing with a notion of "maybe we were the problem all along". Or even the reverse. That way a disaster event on that scale wouldn't have been so flimsy in the established storyline of the X series. Basically, the elf wars (if included) should never have been the "end" of X's journey.

But if you're making a series about Zero I guess you gotta make edgaaaaaay as fuuuuudge.

[Majikn]

And what if there just weren't charged variants? What if charging was the simply the mechanic by which you combine weapons?

That is actually the way the charge mechanic works in Mighty Gunvolt Burst. The problem for that game is, it's not exactly useful. But that's due to that game's specific design, so it could easily be done a lot better.

Honestly I don't know how well any of that would work in tandem with Zero's gameplay anyway. I do agree that I want more incentive to test and use weapon energy during the stages though.

I don't think the Mighty Gunvolt games are all THAT good compared to what other people say, but I keep coming back to MGB;

If you're going for "Burst" combos (defeating enemies in close quarters) then weapon customization no only works, but adds an extra level of depth. I think the weapon mixing thing could work really well for Zero too.

I've been thinking about this and I've played MGB a bit. I saw the customization menu. That's depth for sure, but it might be too much. I think anything that requires a lot of menuing would get in the way. It's neat for what it is, and maybe something to keep for players to tinker with at their leisure without it being required, but what I would look for first is a way for X to switch weapons on the fly, and in a better way than just using L and R to swap between them. I could never be bothered to remember the order of the weapons and I never found it intuitive to mash cycle through them mid-game to get to the weapon I wanted. Remembering the weapon positions on some kind of hotkey map using the second analog stick would go a lot further to encourage me swapping between them, I think. I would want the game to get that sort of fast-paced weapon swapping down before trying more complicated stuff.

EDIT: Aaaand apparently that whole thing I was suggesting about hotkey maps is already in MM11. That's exactly what I was thinking of.

Don't mind me; I don't pay attention.

[Mikero]

Haha well that's a good update! Going back to that, I do agree. I couldn't really be bothered to remember the order of customized weapons and generally only swapped between the latest two I'd created anyway.