MegaMan Matrix

Welcome, Guest. Please Log In or Register. Did you miss your activation email?
1 November 2024, 07:26:16
RadioGallery (OFFLINE)MBoard + MChatRegisterLog In
The MBoard  |  MegaMan Series  |  Miscellaneous MegaMan Games  |  : MegaMan Versus His Rivals
Pages: « 1 2 3 Print
Author Topic: MegaMan Versus His Rivals  (Read 49746 times)
Kamon
Robot Master
****
Posts: 641



« Reply #100 on: 30 December 2007, 19:54:36 »

You mean like MMX4's Zero VS Sigma cut scene?
I never said that was faithful gameplay.

In the context of a cutscene fight between X and Zero, it would make more sense for Zero NOT to be able to shred through X's defence or attacks with ease.

Posted on: 30 December 2007, 19:49:05

I'd expect a cutscene to remain faithful to gameplay abilities and limits, not just throw out random stuff for the sake of looking cool.

...Er, well they don't remain "faithful". They never really have, don't now, and probably never will. That's just how cutscenes flow, and there's thousands of direct examples. Besides, there's no rationale in holding that against cinematics like it's a bad thing. Isn't it the gameplay that's being ridiculous in that, again, it won't let me chop through an ice block with a burning sword?

It's NOT ridiculous, you're supposed to just accept it, but if you're gonna split hairs, technically the gameplay is the one being unfaithful.

Depending on the temperature of the flames, Ryuenjin could quite easily fail. Unless the technique happens to be Thermite or around that level of temperature, it wouldn't melt through the block of ice so easily.

Of course, that said, Zero's Ryuenjin does destroy Frost Walrus's ice blocks but so does X's charge shot. Zero can't, however, damage the larger blocks of ice that are generated.
Logged

MMM's pet Tachikoma.
Aych
Metall
**
Posts: 88


« Reply #101 on: 30 December 2007, 19:59:42 »

Kamon, that is exceedingly picky. We don't know the temperature of Ryuenjin's blade nor how hard or frozen Frost Towers are. I wasn't proposing all this as a pro Zero has against X, it was an example to show how situations like these are why you can't judge capability off only what the player is strictly capable of performing in game.
Logged
Kamon
Robot Master
****
Posts: 641



« Reply #102 on: 30 December 2007, 20:09:05 »

I know the Thermite thing was picky and unneccessary, but it's the sort of thing I usually throw out in these sorts of debates on Gaia. I'll stop it here.

What a player is capable of doing in game is the only real solid evidence available for character abilities aside from cutscenes taken from the games.
Logged

MMM's pet Tachikoma.
Aych
Metall
**
Posts: 88


« Reply #103 on: 30 December 2007, 20:33:28 »

What a player is capable of doing in game is the only real solid evidence available for character abilities aside from cutscenes taken from the games.

Indeed it is. All I've been saying is that cutscenes usually take the highest priority in dictating what can happen or what can't happen within the creation's own fictitious continuum, due to the fact they ARE what makes the game's story and everything you see happen. If you have a, "Hey, why can't I do that while I'm playing!?" moment, virtually anything can happen outside the boundaries of gameplay.
Logged
Kamon
Robot Master
****
Posts: 641



« Reply #104 on: 30 December 2007, 20:38:21 »

While that's true, we can't disregard gameplay all together in these debates. In the case of Ryuenjin, there is no cutscene use. Therefore, shouldn't we have to use the gameplay rules for it to maintain canon? Otherwise you get people overpowering characters on a whim
Logged

MMM's pet Tachikoma.
Aych
Metall
**
Posts: 88


« Reply #105 on: 30 December 2007, 20:43:38 »

No, of course not. You don't ENTIRELY disregard gameplay, it is to be considered.

As for what the rules of, say, Ryuenjin are as far as canon goes, it should still be judged in what is reasonable of the canon. When it comes to that particular technique, I think it would be safe to say it could do things like break a Frost Tower if strong enough. To keep people from overpowering anyone, you really just have to use common sense. Maybe Zero can slice a Frost Tower, but what if a Eurasia sized chunk of ice was plummeting through the atmosphere towards him?

Really, you just have to take it as it comes, case by case. It depends. What makes sense will make sense.
Logged
Kamon
Robot Master
****
Posts: 641



« Reply #106 on: 30 December 2007, 20:50:15 »

If strong enough, perhaps, but Frost Tower has withstood Magma Dragoon's attacks so Ryuenjin will have to be very powerful to break Frost Tower. We know Ryuenjin can shatter ice, it's just a matter of if it can beat Frost Tower.

I have a cheap-ish combo in the works that would end this debate, if allowed.
Logged

MMM's pet Tachikoma.
Xero
Matrix Marine
*****
Posts: 2297



« Reply #107 on: 30 December 2007, 21:49:49 »

Keep in mind elements and their weakness change.

Frost Tower while being weak to a Ryuenjin can also possibly be weak to a Raijenkai as well.

Since Ice is weak to fire and electricity.  But at the same time Ice is stronger than fire.

...

WTH CAPCOM.
Logged
ChaosVortex
Super Robot
*****
Posts: 5638



« Reply #108 on: 30 December 2007, 23:11:33 »

Not just Capcom. This is somewhat of a universal gameplay element. Pokemon pulls the same thing too.

Enemy Articuno appeared!
Go Charizard!
Charizard used Fire Blast!
Critical Hit!
It's Super Effective!
Enemy Articuno used Blizzard!
Critical Hit!
It's Super Effective!
Logged

[ N ][ M ][ C ]
[ S ][ - ][ E ]
[ J ][ V ][ W ]

Mega Man and Yu-Gi-Oh! fanatic!
https://www.lulladin.weebly.com
Xero
Matrix Marine
*****
Posts: 2297



« Reply #109 on: 30 December 2007, 23:12:49 »

Yeah it makes no #####ing sense.

JUST KEEP IT CONSTANT CAPCOM!
Logged
Vinchenz Rock
Super Robot
*****
Posts: 3642



« Reply #110 on: 30 December 2007, 23:15:23 »

Capcom didn't make Pokemon. >_>

But it KINDA makes sense... like, if you threw ice on fire, the fire would douse out...

And if you shot fire out of a flamethrower at ice, it would melt... <_<;
Logged

preventerWIND
Super Robot
*****
Posts: 6423



« Reply #111 on: 30 December 2007, 23:15:49 »

They even did it in the past.

Metal Blade > EVERYTHING
Logged

LOL BANDWAGON
ChaosVortex
Super Robot
*****
Posts: 5638



« Reply #112 on: 30 December 2007, 23:17:24 »

It does to me...

Fire melts Ice. Ice is water. Water puts out a fire.

Water conducts electricity. Ice is water. Ice conducts electricity.

I'd say only a few times it doesn't make sense. You'd think a tree pokemon would burn up if it got hit by an electric attack. Electricity does start fires. Fires burns wood.

Reminds me, I didn't understand the whole Battle Network "Wood beats Elec" deal. Everything else was fine.

EDIT: Vinch... *shakes fist*
Logged

[ N ][ M ][ C ]
[ S ][ - ][ E ]
[ J ][ V ][ W ]

Mega Man and Yu-Gi-Oh! fanatic!
https://www.lulladin.weebly.com
Kamon
Robot Master
****
Posts: 641



« Reply #113 on: 30 December 2007, 23:23:21 »

They even did it in the past.

Metal Blade > EVERYTHING
Seriously, what were they thinking when they had Metalman be weak to his own weapon?
Logged

MMM's pet Tachikoma.
Johncarllos
Super Robot
*****
Posts: 6811



« Reply #114 on: 31 December 2007, 00:05:15 »

Ice doesn't conduct electricity worth a crap.
Logged

I can skin anything smaller than a bobcat in 30 seconds.
preventerWIND
Super Robot
*****
Posts: 6423



« Reply #115 on: 31 December 2007, 00:08:44 »

It does the same thing in Pokemans, I guess in a way it does. Ice is made from water, which conducts electricity.
Logged

LOL BANDWAGON
Mikero
Super Robot
*****
Posts: 11986



« Reply #116 on: 31 December 2007, 02:16:50 »

While I think X would beat Zero in any case, Aych has a point. How you play doesn't mean that's how X fights.

Anyway on to business I know much more about;

what if a Eurasia sized chunk of ice was plummeting through the atmosphere towards him?

It would melt on entry.

But it KINDA makes sense... like, if you threw ice on fire, the fire would douse out...

And if you shot fire out of a flamethrower at ice, it would melt... <_<;
It does to me...

Fire melts Ice. Ice is water. Water puts out a fire.

Water conducts electricity. Ice is water. Ice conducts electricity.

I'd say only a few times it doesn't make sense. You'd think a tree pokemon would burn up if it got hit by an electric attack. Electricity does start fires. Fires burns wood.

Reminds me, I didn't understand the whole Battle Network "Wood beats Elec" deal. Everything else was fine.

EDIT: Vinch... *shakes fist*

From the desk of Mikero;

Water, Ice, and Electricity
Water conducts electricity because of it's ions. As water freezes it forces it's ions out, which become concentrated in the leftover unfrozen water. Ice is partially deionized and it's molecules and ions can barely move, so it can only conduct about as much as a static electric charge or less, and thus is an extremely poor conductor of an electrical charge.

Wood and Electricity
Wood has tightly bound cellulose fibers, which are too tightly bound to conduct electricity. Wood is an insulator, which is essentially the opposite of a conductor. Insulators do not easily allow the flow of electricity.

Trees are struck by lightning because electricity seeks out the path to the ground with the least resistance and the moisture trapped inside a tree is a better conductor than the air. Lightning tends to do one of three things when striking a tree; Scar it, leave it completely unharmed, or utterly destroying it.

Lightning tends to strike just underneath the bark, where the moisture is locked in water and sap. The result can cause a scar in the tree when the lightning moves down just under the bark, the force of which causes the bark to fly off the tree in that straight line (path of electricity).

In some trees the moisture is mostly concentrated in the deep core of the tree and when the lightning strikes for the the tree is obliterated by the return stroke(s) splitting the trunk, splintering the wood, and launching off branches.

If it has recently rained, a lightning strike can hit the tree and the electricity will move around the surface of the tree along that moisture until reaching the ground, leaving the tree completely unharmed.

However, lightning causes most forest fires, igniting dry wood and leaves with intense heat usually from straight cloud-to-ground lightning strikes that occur independently from a rain storm.

Water, Ice, and Fire
If you were to drop ice on a campfire the fire might go out based on the fact that the ice smothers the fire if it's big enough. However the embers would survive and melt a small amount of the ice which would put out the embers.

But to put a small amount of in a fire, or a large about of ice over a fire would end differently. Water melts more slowly than it freezes, and as such the water created by ice melting over or in a fire appears in volumes too small to quell a fire. A fire cannot destroy itself by such means.

The melted water might wet some of the kindling and wood so it won't burn. But barely.

~Love,
Mike
Logged

ChaosVortex
Super Robot
*****
Posts: 5638



« Reply #117 on: 31 December 2007, 03:33:13 »

Water, Ice, and Electricity
Water conducts electricity because of it's ions. As water freezes it forces it's ions out, which become concentrated in the leftover unfrozen water. Ice is partially deionized and it's molecules and ions can barely move, so it can only conduct about as much as a static electric charge or less, and thus is an extremely poor conductor of an electrical charge.

Yeah, I hate chemistry. Probably a good excuse why I didn't know that, but if the ice itself is in the process of melting, it would conduct electricity right?

Wood and Electricity
Wood has tightly bound cellulose fibers, which are too tightly bound to conduct electricity. Wood is an insulator, which is essentially the opposite of a conductor. Insulators do not easily allow the flow of electricity.

[...]

However, lightning causes most forest fires, igniting dry wood and leaves with intense heat usually from straight cloud-to-ground lightning strikes that occur independently from a rain storm.

Yeah, I knew all that... mostly. I can't say I could answer all that on the top of my head, but I vaguely remember this.

Water, Ice, and Fire
If you were to drop ice on a campfire the fire might go out based on the fact that the ice smothers the fire if it's big enough. However the embers would survive and melt a small amount of the ice which would put out the embers.

But to put a small amount of in a fire, or a large about of ice over a fire would end differently. Water melts more slowly than it freezes, and as such the water created by ice melting over or in a fire appears in volumes too small to quell a fire. A fire cannot destroy itself by such means.

The melted water might wet some of the kindling and wood so it won't burn. But barely.

Yeah, the water or ice has to put out the fire in one shot, otherwise the fire still exists.
Logged

[ N ][ M ][ C ]
[ S ][ - ][ E ]
[ J ][ V ][ W ]

Mega Man and Yu-Gi-Oh! fanatic!
https://www.lulladin.weebly.com
Mikero
Super Robot
*****
Posts: 11986



« Reply #118 on: 31 December 2007, 03:51:51 »

Only the water would conduct any substantial charge, the ice really can't.
Logged

preventerWIND
Super Robot
*****
Posts: 6423



« Reply #119 on: 31 December 2007, 04:00:31 »

Yeah Mike? Well, can you explain how Wood beats Air?
Logged

LOL BANDWAGON
Mikero
Super Robot
*****
Posts: 11986



« Reply #120 on: 31 December 2007, 04:01:18 »

Air can't pass through a wall of wood.
Logged

preventerWIND
Super Robot
*****
Posts: 6423



« Reply #121 on: 31 December 2007, 04:04:26 »

Well, that makes sense. But how do leaves beat air?

Megaman 2 is full of lies.
Logged

LOL BANDWAGON
Mikero
Super Robot
*****
Posts: 11986



« Reply #122 on: 31 December 2007, 04:13:43 »

Leaves cut through air like razors through wrists.
Logged

ChaosVortex
Super Robot
*****
Posts: 5638



« Reply #123 on: 31 December 2007, 05:19:33 »

I always imagined something like vines covering old machinery equipment.

Yeah, makes little sense I guess... but it's my best guess.

Metal Man's own weapon weakness though... different story.
Logged

[ N ][ M ][ C ]
[ S ][ - ][ E ]
[ J ][ V ][ W ]

Mega Man and Yu-Gi-Oh! fanatic!
https://www.lulladin.weebly.com
Mikero
Super Robot
*****
Posts: 11986



« Reply #124 on: 31 December 2007, 06:10:46 »

Metal cuts metal every day. But yeah that's dumb game designing.

Another thing: I'm sure water doesn't re-ionize when ice melts, so melted ice is de-ionized water which barely carries an electrical charge. "Pure" water (which is often taken from untouched icebergs) lacks the impure ions of tap water, and thus doesn't carry a charge either since those are the ions that make water carry charges. So even the water FROM ice doesn't conduct.
« Last Edit: 31 December 2007, 06:16:07 by Mikero » Logged

preventerWIND
Super Robot
*****
Posts: 6423



« Reply #125 on: 31 December 2007, 06:48:23 »

Leaves cut through air like razors through wrists.

Even when he's busting out 10 twisters at once? D:<

Well, makes sense : \
Logged

LOL BANDWAGON
TheRedPriest
Matrix Marine
*****
Posts: 3413



« Reply #126 on: 31 December 2007, 16:43:35 »

Metal Man's own weapon weakness though... different story.

What?  Don't you know Metal Man can dish it out but he can't TAKE it?
Logged

Doctor Mario is not a real doctor.  Do NOT let him touch your genitals.
Xero
Matrix Marine
*****
Posts: 2297



« Reply #127 on: 31 December 2007, 19:13:23 »

Ruby Spears Reference?
Logged
TheRedPriest
Matrix Marine
*****
Posts: 3413



« Reply #128 on: 31 December 2007, 19:14:44 »

Not intentionally.  I avoid that crap like the plague.
Logged

Doctor Mario is not a real doctor.  Do NOT let him touch your genitals.
Xero
Matrix Marine
*****
Posts: 2297



« Reply #129 on: 31 December 2007, 19:16:15 »

I'm sure Megaman did say something like that on the show.

And the only thing good to come from the show was Mcneil's Wily.
Logged
Mikero
Super Robot
*****
Posts: 11986



« Reply #130 on: 1 January 2008, 23:00:43 »

I don't know about that, brother. There were some hilar lines, brother. You can't forget the brother stuff, brother.
Logged

Xero
Matrix Marine
*****
Posts: 2297



« Reply #131 on: 1 January 2008, 23:03:25 »

Of course....brother.
Logged
Abominator
Creator of MMM
*****
Posts: 1513



« Reply #132 on: 1 January 2008, 23:57:12 »

Was Hulk Hogan in it?
Logged

I might be ugly... At least I ain't got no money!
Xero
Matrix Marine
*****
Posts: 2297



« Reply #133 on: 1 January 2008, 23:59:32 »

That or a Goron.
Logged
Mikero
Super Robot
*****
Posts: 11986



« Reply #134 on: 2 January 2008, 00:49:59 »

Or even the Macho Man Randy Savage those few times he said brotherrrrrrr instead of something about Slim Jims.
Logged

Kayauts
Metall
**
Posts: 54



« Reply #135 on: 25 March 2008, 00:33:02 »

Slim Jims Vs. Beef Jerky, now THERE'S an intense battle
Logged

Pages: « 1 2 3 Print 
The MBoard  |  MegaMan Series  |  Miscellaneous MegaMan Games  |  : MegaMan Versus His Rivals
Jump to:
Cannot access offset of type string on string
Powered by SMF 2.0.18 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC
Go to top
Add MegaMan Matrix to your Favorites
Original content © 1999-2007, Abominator.
Trademarks are copyright their respective owners.